Better Learning Podcast Episode 209: 'Dead Poets Society' with Dr. Michael McDowell & Aaron Eisberg

In this episode, host Kevin Stoller alongside guests Dr. Michael McDowell and Aaron Eisberg, discuss the movie 'Dead Poets Society'. They explore its themes of conformity, success, and educational transformation while drawing parallels to modern-day educational challenges and experiences.

They also give various awards to the movie, such as Most Realistic and Unrealistic aspects and who could replace Robin Williams in a modern remake. They also discuss the changes that could occur if it was remade today.

The episode wraps up with insights into Michael and Aaron's innovative visual book project aimed at transforming educational practices.

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/tUsOyIX5e9w

Takeaways:

• Being passionate about your work changes education for kids
• Being unorthodox can have a positive impact
• You can be successful and be yourself

About Dr. Michael McDowell:

Michael McDowell, EdD was a public school educator for eighteen years serving in the roles of classroom teacher, academic and athletic coach, school principal, assistant superintendent of personnel and instruction, and superintendent. During his tenure as a superintendent, his school district received state and national accolades including the National Blue Ribbon Award which recognized their work for student performance and mental health and well-being in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic by the U.S. Department of Education. Dr. McDowell serves on educational boards, served as a college professor, and has worked for non-profit organizations to enhance student learning around the world. Over the course of his career, Dr. McDowell has authored bestselling books, created professional learning programs and workbooks, provided keynotes and workshops, and provided practical tools and resources for thousands of teachers and leaders on almost every continent around the world. A prolific author and consultant, Dr. McDowell is recognized as one of the leading authorities on integrating innovative and impactful practices into schools. Dr. McDowell co-founded Hinge Education and offers keynotes and executive coaching to heads of school around the world, where he partners with educational leaders to implement high leverage strategies that will enhance teaching and learning in classrooms, schools, and systems.

Socials:

X: @mmcdowell13
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelmcdowell13/

About Aaron Eisberg:

Aaron Eisberg is an international facilitator and an expert in project-based learning, instructional design, and professional development for K-12 educators. With a career that began as a teacher in K-5 classrooms, he has since advised schools and systems on creating rigorous instruction and empowering student voice. As the Director for the Center for Excellence at Napa New Tech High School, Aaron leads professional learning and fosters a student-centered culture focused on academic and 21st-century outcomes. He has a passion for project-based learning and partners with educators globally. Aaron holds degrees in Natural Science and Elementary Education and is a long-standing member of the PBLWorks National Faculty as well as consultant with The Core Collaborative. He is now sharing his experiences and insights as an author.

Socials:
X: @eisbergpbl
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aeisberg/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newtechhighcfe/

Episode 209 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

Transcript

209. Dr. Michael McDowell & Aaron Eisberg
===

[00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of the Better Learning Podcast. My name's Kevin Stoller, host of the show. We're doing something totally different here that I'm so excited about. I've been wanting to do something like this and I have two takers that took me into this adventure with me. So we are, our normal, uh, Our normal, uh, setup of these types of shows is more interview style and we dig into education and look at how we change and, and improve education.

We're going to do it in a different format here where we're actually going to break down a movie that, that we, uh, that we explored. So before we talk about the movie Dead Poets Society, which is what we're going to break down today, I'm going to introduce my, my co host, my guest for, for the show today, Michael McDowell and Aaron Iceberg.

Michael, you want to start out and give a given overview of who you are?

Yeah, sure. Thanks, Kevin. And, uh, thanks for having me. Uh, Michael McDowell, I, uh, educator, and I write books and work with schools all over the world. And, um, I was [00:01:00] a high school math and science teacher, a principal, and I was a superintendent for a while.

Perfect. Aaron, how about you?

Aaron Iceberg. Uh, great to be here. Um, I work at a high school. in Napa, California, called Napa New Technology High School, where I'm the Director for the Center for Excellence, which provides training, partnerships to develop capacity for schools all over the world, like Michael, and also co author.

So, I'm excited to hear more about your book. We'll work that in, because it's definitely different. I love the format of it. Um, and I, and Aaron and I have gotten to know each other. I've actually been out to his school before to see what they're doing, and it is, um, and it is, um, right in line with the types of things that we talk about on the show all the time of just really trying to change, change the status quo, look at the ways things are different to engage students and, uh, and go beyond just kind of this traditional idea, which is really interesting that that's the, the movie that we're breaking down.

is Dead Poets Society. Is there like anything more like [00:02:00] traditional as far as like the way education has been? This is like, like the elite, like this is what, what you think of like what education looks like, at least for me. I don't know what you guys thought.

I mean, I look, I just, I think of Dead Poets Society and I just think of Robin Williams character and I just think of him saying, Hey, we can break the mold and that this isn't about.

Tradition. This isn't about textbooks. This is actually about passion. This is, you know, the whole idea of, you know, Carpe Diem, gather the rosebeds while we may, it's like, go get it, right? And like, to me, like, I love, I love that energy. And to me, like, that's what makes a great teacher. Like I, I watched Robin Williams.

I'm like, yeah, this is, this is why I want to do this work.

Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, I think it's easy for everyone to jump up. They all see the one scene, right? I mean, jumping on the table and all the things, but I think there's such a better meaning behind like, just challenging, you know, like Michael said, the typical status quo, right?

I mean, [00:03:00] he's working in a school with kids who have absolutely everything, um, and to make kids passionate learning and to challenge the system, um, and go beyond. I mean, that's making the connections with the kids was just, I love how he did that throughout the process.

Yeah. And so if, if people have not looked, watched this again, I had to go back and I, I watched it again when we were like throwing this idea out here.

Um, so it was 1989. I mean, that's when this came out. and I'm old, you know? Yeah. I mean, I, I look at it, I'm like, I don't know. We're probably, I don't know, may I, I, I'm probably older than you guys, or at least you guys have much better hair than I do. but I was, I was 13 years old when it came out, probably the first time I saw it.

And, uh. And I'm like, man, like the, the impression of that, of like, of like, wow, this was like that, that rogue teacher that was like really trying to connect with people. Um, but there were so many movies around that time that were about like more of like these, like boarding school type of [00:04:00] type of like New England type of, or East coast environment.

Yeah, there was. I mean, I think of, I think of like the Al Pacino movie, uh, Scent of a Woman, came out at that same time where they were, where it was very similar, right? And this kid was about to get expelled, um, if he didn't have an advocate, if he didn't have someone that, I mean, here was a student that went to college.

Again, what did not conform and instead went with his values. And I think that's very similar to Dead Poets Society. So there's, there must've been something going on in the late eighties. That, and I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe the Al Pacino movie came out in like 2004, like my time, my sense of time. Um, I just think like, like zero to five, COVID, and then like, whatever happened yesterday with my kids, so, I don't know.

I feel like there were a lot though, like this fascination of, of like that boarding school. So the movie came out in 89, but it was, it was set in 1959. So I was kind of looking at like this, kind of like this class, like this era [00:05:00] of like, I don't know, like the, the elite type of boarding school type of setup.

Well, and the other thing I think there's like, not only then, right? Like you think about the, in the fifties, the idea of like, You know, they're writing a poetry. It's all about that self expression that he wanted to thrive. And that's there's such a parallel in terms of today with kids, right? And like, how do we get kids excited about poetry in high school English?

And, you know, like, The Crucible, you know, all these things that teachers and to get kids to read, write, and talk and to enhance that self expression. Um, you know, you think about poetry slams and all the great ways that kids can express themselves and poetry is a great way to do it. I think there's so many great themes that were happening that they show in the 50s, uh, that are super relevant today.

Yeah. All right, so I have some award categories that we're going to go through and try to talk through. Um, as I read these categories and then apply, like, Dead Poets Society, a lot of them are [00:06:00] pretty easy on here. Like, of like, what was the most memorable teacher or mentor? and in this movie, there's, uh, it's pretty much, uh, Robin Williams character, Keating.

In there, like, everyone else was like, I mean, there was like no one even close to him, right? There were other teachers, but they were like, they were like, I remember one interaction with one of them of like, Hey, you can't hit, like, kids. To, to like dream or like think like beyond that, like, like it's almost like it was almost like this.

It was dangerous to, to, to, to spark that type of curiosity. I mean,

I think like to me, if I think of the, you know, what are the, what are the key themes of the, of the movie? And it's this idea of the battle between conformity and success, right? And does conformity equate to success? And obviously in a culture that a culture would say, well, yes, if you conform with us, obviously you're successful because you're with us.

But then there's this, this battle with John, with, with Robin Williams [00:07:00] character, John Keating, where he, where he's like, find your own voice. And to me, I think that's, those are the best teachers. I mean, he wins the award because he's saying to these kids that You can be successful and be yourself. And what better teacher is, is there than that to say, you are a wonderful person.

You're a great human being and you can learn a lot. I mean, Keating has the kids to rip out part of the book, right? That beginning part to tell you like that poetry has no heart, but what he didn't do is say, throw the book away. He said, keep the poetry. Because that's going to help you find your voice.

And so, I mean, I, Aaron, if you find anyone else in the movie that gets the award, like I got, I got to hear this. This is

crazy. Beyond the scene where they're cared, they're all, I just remember the scene and again, it's been a while since I've seen it. So, uh, like all of their red, you know, conformity, like sweatshirts, carrying them off, you know, like, I think, and I can't remember the character's name is the lead, the lead [00:08:00] student, and he's just like, you have that internal, like, Battle, right?

Between like he wants that, but like having to conform. And, you know, I mean, the kid has like the world like handed to him, right? Um, I think to, to Michael's point, whether you're in a boring school like that, um, but those teachers that really matter, those, the ones that build the relationships, build meaning behind the why, um, and bring the joy and passion to learning.

I'm thinking of other movies. That have very similar theme and they're always highlighting the teachers who are making connections with kids who are making Um, you know, they're building that teacher student relationship where there's trust there, but they're also like kind of pushing Uh the boundaries a little bit about traditional thinking, uh and education and I this is this is You know, we see that, you know, throughout time.

Yeah, well, I think of the first scene, like the first classroom scene where, where they're in his class for the first time and he's like singing a song or [00:09:00] like humming a song or something and he's walking between the rows and then he just walks out of the room. And the kids don't know what to do and he has to be like, come on, follow me.

And they're like, what? Like, we're actually like, we're supposed to sit in straight rows and just listen to you talk. And you're asking us like, to actually like, leave the room. That was so foreign to them.

Yeah. And, and, and I think, sorry, go ahead.

Oh, I just think like, you know, you mentioned that scene, Kevin, I think about, Um, we're just, I just sent some schools this week and just think, and just listen to the kids.

And, you know, like even at our school, we do interviews with the kids, like, what do you want more of? They're like, we just want to like talk and make, make learning real and, and making those connections. And like, he, he challenges that from the onset.

And I was just, you know, I was just thinking, Kevin, you made this comment about 1989.

And so I'm having this whole like, The thing about time right now, and my favorite quote, so my favorite, so there is a, so the poem, one of the poems that he reads is by Robert [00:10:00] Herrick

and,

and a lot of people remember the Carpe Diem part, but it's Gather Ye Rosebuds, that always stuck with me in the movie, and I always thought about it as a teacher, like time is fleeting.

Like, you only got so much time, so, so make it something that you find value in, that you find love in, I mean, as a parent, I'm always saying that to my own kids, I know it seems like a long life, a long road, but like, really get everything out of it that you can today, and yeah, so he wins the award.

Yeah, for sure.

Alright, so, so this next category of, we call it the Realistic or Ridiculous, is, is, From what we, from what you guys know, going through school, teaching, all the experience that you have, administration of going through, what, what were the things that are like, man, they got it right. Like that's really realistic versus the way schools, schools typically are from our experience.

[00:11:00] think that one thing that they got right in the movie is that I think that I think teaching is this incredibly challenging job where people come into the work. And I would say every educator I've ever met. Has a high level of passion, that this is a vocation.

And then there is a moment in your career where you decide, are you going to keep that flame burning? Cause it's so tiring and it's so exhausting, or you eventually make a compromise and say, I'm going to work, but I just, it's so tiring. It's so exhausting. I'm just not going to push as hard in some of those areas.

And when I watched that movie and I've watched it again, a few years ago, I just think about some of the teachers around John Keating that had to make those Those really tough decisions. And Ted Sizer in a classic book in education called Horace's Compromise writes about this, that there's so much stress, so much pressure on teachers to perform at such a level.

And they're dealing with so many different emotions and dynamics that at some point I think you make a compromise. So when I think [00:12:00] about a lot of the teachers around John Keating, and I think a lot of the teachers like the Robin Williams character, that I looked at that and I'm like, that's like a lot of, that's like a lot of schools.

I think that's true. I think they got that right.

Yeah, I think the same thing, similarly. Um, with this idea of like conformity versus rebellion, right? Teachers, they all, like, they're doing good things, right? We know that they care, uh, we know that they're passionate, we also know that they're tired. Um, there's a lot coming at them and, and they want to make meaning for kids.

They want to engage them at higher levels, right? They want to kind of push back against the system of like traditional thinking around, you know, instruction and things like that. But at the same time, they're like Yeah, but, you know, we have this assessment. Yeah, but we have these other things that are on our proverbial, our plate.

Um, and it's, it can be overwhelming, right? They, they want to, I, we had, [00:13:00] just had a great conversation with a teacher yesterday. Look, this is how we've always taught it. This is how I'm told I have to teach it, but I know it's not engaging for kids, and it's really, truthfully, it's not engaging for me. How, like, how can we just help change and shift that idea?

Um, and so we just talked through, it's a great moment, um, just to talk about, like, hey, we can still be, like, helping support kids learn at really high rates. Uh, but let's also, like, help kids along the way in that path.

Yeah. So for me, the, the realistic piece of that, that I feel like still rings true today is, is the whole game of school is like they, they knew like school, like they were in high school to get to college and it was like the game to get into the elite, like the Ivy league, elite colleges.

And I still feel like a lot of that still rings true today, where the students understand this game that they're playing and the whole idea that it could actually [00:14:00] be fun and engaging and like, and like, spark some type of like, that desire, like that seize the day type of attitude was, I still feel like that in a lot of ways, unfortunately, it's still very, very realistic.

Yeah, and we had that conversation, like, I see that happening, like kids. From an early age, right? I was in a TK kinder class a few weeks ago and the kids knew the game, like they knew the game of what they were supposed to do, right? And one student had like this idea that kind of pushed back and the teacher's like, but really?

But really? And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I'm going to go, I want to be compliant at this stage, right? And the student wasn't wrong and the teacher was trying to probe his thinking, but he knew the game, right? And he was already trying Kids, like, you know, in the T, you know, age four or five.

Um, you know, so it's just fascinating that idea of like, you know, playing that game in school. Kids are

Yeah, the other that I thought was pre or pretty [00:15:00] realistic. Maybe, maybe it was, it was a little too hardcore in this movie and too overt was the parental pressure of the expectations. Um, I don't know. I, I always say like, I don't know if it's changing.

I feel like it's changing because I try not to do that with my kids. But, but do you, what do you guys think? Like, you guys are seeing it more like, is this like pressure to succeed and to get good grades and to go to a good college? You still feel the Parental pressure. Yes. Yeah.

Uh, I mean, I, I think absolutely.

I think it's, I think we're looking at, there's so much competition to be able to get into certain colleges that you're, you're still feeling that pressure. Now that the parenting strategies may be a little bit different, you know, the signals may a little bit, be a little bit different. So instead of a parent saying you have to go to Stanford, their parents will just take them to Stanford and buy them like a Lululemon sweatshirt that says Stanford on it.

So you're kind of like sending the message like, Hey, don't [00:16:00] you want it? Don't you want to go here? So you got to get a 5. 2 GPA in order to do it. The kids are like, okay, so how do I do that? And that brings me to, I think the other part that's very real is educators that do try to do what Robin Williams does, and they lose their jobs, and they leave the system.

Now there's schools like Aaron's school. Um, you know, I think that the difference between the 1950s and now is that there are Kind of places, safe spaces where you can go and you can actually do that. And that's marketed to school, to, to parents and the schools. And so what I would say is like something that's probably different is there's more outlets, kind of like streaming services.

Like you can go different places to watch your media. Um, where I think in the 1950s, you didn't have that. Whereas now it's like, look, if you don't want as much pressure, and I'm not saying that there aren't pressures, like in schools, like Aaron's and others that want to get into the great schools, cause they get into those, but they also get to go to a school where it's not all about conformity.

Okay. It's also about like, Hey, these are the things you have to do, but guess what? We really care about your voice. We really care about you [00:17:00] taking risks and, and failing. And we're going to, we're going to create some kind of like safety blanket so that you can actually succeed.

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Should I switch it over to the ridiculous side?

What, what, what was unrealistic about that? Not everyone goes to a boarding

school that are like, with just a ton of white people, right? Like, I mean, like when I thought about dead poet society, I'm like. I've never been in one of those. I mean, like, like, I couldn't even imagine where it's like, Michael, you got to go to Eden.

I'm like, where's Eden? Like, west, east of Eden? Like, is that like, like, is that a biblical place? Or is that like a place like, what are you talking about? So like, to me, like uniforms

and,

um, the whole thing, like everyone's gonna go to Harvard. I'm like, Yeah, that's like that. That's a thing. You know, you got multilingual like learners.

You've got families that are in the lower and middle classes. People [00:19:00] who have moved here from different places. I mean, you've got, you know, not everyone's a man, right? Like, all of that is kind of ridiculous in my opinion.

Yeah, I think that there's definitely that piece of like, I think in watching like, A variety of different educational videos, right?

I think this kind of is motivated for like some of the work that Michael and I have been doing, uh, for the last, you know, year, years and stuff. It's really that idea of like, I can't picture myself there. Like, that's not the life I grew up in, right? Like, that's not, that wasn't my school experience, you know, like we, I grew up in a migrant farming community, right?

We're like so many different ethnicities and diversity and it was amazing and beautiful and it was great, but I didn't know any different. Right. So like watching a show like that, I'm like, Oh, okay. I mean, is that what high school is like? Cause sure. Like it's just, wasn't my reality, uh, and what education was growing up.

Yeah. The one thing for me that stood out is these guys were so nice to each other. [00:20:00] Like, like the new guy came in to be the, be the roommate. Um, like he came into the first year and he, his roommate was just like, so nice to him and like protective and like, and I'm like, that is so unrealistic. I just think you get a whole bunch of guys together and they're, they're, they're not that nice to each other.

Totally. You get like a lot more rivalries, a lot more just like, yeah, competitiveness. And that didn't show up in that movie at all. No.

Yeah. And could you imagine like, when you watch that at like. So I'd have been like nine or ten, like to watch that and be like, Oh my, Oh wow. You actually have to sleep over at school.

That's the worst school ever. I like school, but like at three o'clock, I'm out. Send me home.

Yeah, although it did seem realistic in the fact that somebody was trying to petition to get girls accepted into the school. I'm like, yeah, I bet that would definitely happen today if it was an all guys school.

I'm sure that the conversation always like why? Yeah,

yeah, there were so [00:21:00] many equity issues. I mean this is saying that it was in the 1950s. I'm like, yeah, this is definitely pre Yeah, um, Civil Rights. Um, so yeah, there's those, there's those whole pieces, uh, kind of a related, uh, to that. But yeah, I, I'm with Aaron.

I could not connect it. I mean, I was just like, anyway.

Yeah, yeah, doesn't feel, yeah. All right. Well, that leads it perfectly in the next category of, if this was made today, what would, what would be different if this was remade in society today? They remade this movie.

Look, I mean, I think it would be, I think it would be a great movie to be able to show like in a public high school. Like, I actually think that you could replicate the same pressures. the same themes around conformity and success in any public high school anywhere in the United States or around the world.

And I think that you would see some, some very similar behaviors. Now you'd have more representation. I think you'd have some more enhanced dialogue, but I think you'd still see the same thing where there's a system that would chew up and [00:22:00] chew out a teacher. That would leave, um, that particular space, um, and I think that you would, you would find the same thing with students wanting to have that level of expression, parents having those same types of pressures.

So I think, I think it would look very similar in terms of if you could show it in a public school.

Yeah, I think I agree. I'm not to repeat because Michael already said like the parent pressures like I would even look at it like adding a wrinkle. Right. The societal pressures that kids are feeling from society and from media to whether, you know, it is to go to college or, you know, to get a job or something like that, but then also like the peer.

Pressures to conform, right? And what does that look like to conform from the peers? So you can have that same theme, but it would be a fascinating, like, wrinkle to put in there. Like, yeah, you have parentals, but you know, there's a lot of families who are not, uh, you know, the traditional nuclear family.

Right. We have a lot [00:23:00] of, um, you know, split homes and, you know, well, there's a lot of pressures there as well. And so I would think that there would be some similarities, but you can, the themes around like peer conformity, uh, and what that looks like as well.

Yeah. Unfortunately, probably the one that was like to me that just stood out was, man, I did not remember, like when I saw this, like when I, when I was a kid and then rewatching it.

There is a horrible scene. Like I was, Michael, I know we hadn't met before, but I was so mad at you when you suggested this movie and I'm watching it. Awesome.

That's

what I do. I don't know if you remember, I don't know if you remember, there, there's a whole suicide scene in this movie. Yeah. And it was horrible.

And I'm like, Oh my God, that is still very realistic today of, of what we see in our society, of the pressure to succeed so much on these kids to not necessarily follow what they love, but to excel at, at something that was heartbreaking, but, [00:24:00] um, felt like very real

well. And it's gonna be made again. Yeah.

And it's still super prevalent in schools, like seeing it at younger ages. Um, you know, and thankfully, more and more schools are becoming more aware, um, and adding support for mental health services. Um, to support learners, you know, in some of those pieces.

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Um, what, what seemed to, to, uh, the other things to me, like if it was made today, the, the, the communication, holy, like, like the guy was wanting to date A girl who didn't go to the school, like how they had to communicate, like he had to like go to her house, she would call like the hallway phone, and that was the way they could communicate, you know, and like, and all the guys were crowded around, which maybe that's realistic, like, like, like the way it does, but, but just the fact that they didn't have like the communication across where, like, right now, [00:25:00] obviously, Completely different world.

I mean everyone knows exactly where all their friends are at all times and are communicating with them like constantly where it was really hard back at that time.

Oh yeah, that'd be pretty cool though to like do like to do it again today but to be like this is a no tech school and so they'd have to do the same awkward things.

Conversation. So people would be like, is that really what our school would look like if we didn't have technology? And so every principal, like teacher and parent are like, Oh, we definitely need to go and do that. Or you only gave them like those phones from like 1990, like the Manila phone, you know, and that's what they would use.

So you're kind of like, what year are we talking about? I mean, that would be kind of fun.

Well, I think about it and I might have the wrong decade, but like in the fifties, right, there are a lot of communities, they would have phones, right, phones, but they're called party lines. Right. Where multiple homes would share one line, right?

So like, you know, you'd pick it up at my house. I'm like, Oh, neighbor, Johnny over there is already having a conversation. I guess I'll just hang up and wait until he's done and I'll keep checking. Right. So like, what would [00:26:00] that be like if that is Colby at party line, right? Again, going back to those peer pressures, but yeah, first of all, Michael on the Manila phone, they'd have to figure out how that would work besides just like, Hey, call.

So that would be a fun challenge in itself.

That would be. Alright, alright. So, so, the Legacy Award. Who, who, who won the movie? Like, what's gonna be remembered about this movie?

I mean, is the answer too obvious? Or is it just me? Robert Williams, like, ripping the page out. Jumping on the table. Um,

yeah, they all kept to my cap.

Yeah, I

mean, but I do love I do like at the end him getting carried off. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I guess when I think it's funny because when I remember that movie, the scene that I remember is the scene where they're in the cave. Um, and the reason why is because I just see students that are really excited about their learning.

And they're like, we want to go and do [00:27:00] this. We want to kind of live in this, in this particular way of like, what does that poetry really mean? Like they just started to really start to create their own culture around this kind of work. Like I always think about that for the movie is just how this teacher changed students to be better people.

Right. And the impact of that. So. Well, Robin Williams is definitely the person. To me, the scene that's like the legacy scene for me is, is that scene. Because I always thought about, if I could do that with kids. Like, if they were like at lunch, or like after school, or at, in summer, or when they leave to be like, you know, I can do something about this.

I could go and solve this type of problem, or go and, like, I'd be like, My job is done. Like, that's great. Like you're, you're doing something, you're contributing to something that you're passionate about. You know, if you learned about endoplasmic reticulum, it's pretty cool. But like if you actually went to do something like I'm pretty into that.

Yeah, yep. Yeah, I mean, to me, like, this was, like, probably not Robin Williams, like, best [00:28:00] or most memorable role, but it's up there. I almost think he's, like, the same character in Good Will Hunting, he's just older.

You know, I was, it's funny, because when you said that, that's what I was thinking of, like, I had that flash of him mentoring.

Uh, you know, Matt Damon and, you know, working through building the relationships and building the connections, uh, with that. So yeah, same character, just a little older in a different role.

Yeah, man. Well, this is fun doing this. You got any other categories? Since you guys are the first, you can, like, set some traditions here as we move through future movies.

That's a really great question. I do want to just share one thing, and that is that I don't know if you could make the movie today. Okay. without Robin Williams. And, and I think that's, you know, that's one thing. I mean, that he was so talented. And I think if someone had not seen Dead Poets Society, maybe so, but like I could never watch a remake.

And not have Robin Williams be John Deere. Well, that's a

great category. Who would it be? What are the best alternatives? There you go. If it's [00:29:00] not Robin Williams, who else could feasibly play a role like that?

The Rock. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I gotta, like, that's good. I gotta think about

it. What about, uh I don't

know!

Okay, what about, um, uh, oh my gosh, I'm blanking on it. John Krasnowski? Yeah,

John Krasinski?

Thank you. Yeah, I could,

I could Maybe? I could totally see I actually could see Matt Damon playing it, too. Oh?

Hmm. I really like, uh, Kevin Kline, um, and I think, and that's probably because he was in another really great teacher, like, teacher movie, and I can't remember I can't remember the name of it now, but it was, but he would be great.

Yeah. I don't know. That's, I mean, how do you replace Robin Williams? I like, that's. But that, I think that is a really, that is a good category. So maybe that's one, if you had to replace the main role, you know, what, what actor would you put in, would you put in [00:30:00] place?

Yeah, there, I was telling you a lot of the ideas from the try in this format comes from Bill Simmons, podcast, three watchables, and they, they always, they have the category of Tom Hanks or Tom Cruise.

If you had to pick one of those two, who would be the one that would, that could play this role? Oh,

Tom Hanks. Definitely not Tom. Well, I don't see you telling him, being able to fit in his mandatory running scene in there. So

that's great. , there were, yeah. No, no stunts for him. , yeah.

I could see that. I, it's like Dennis Qua and Kevin Costner.

Maybe you do that one. I don't know. That's another good fix. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. I, I could, I could see like a, I could see like a Don Cheadle, um, I think he would be great. Um, as a teacher that would. Kind of connect that way. I just think he's such an amazing actor. Um, Edward Norton would be pretty interesting.

I don't know. There we go.

Throw in, like, Kevin Hart. What do you think? I mean,

I [00:31:00] think it'd be a slapstick. Like, I just don't know what he would be like.

Yeah. He'd be

like, Godfrey's an idiot! And I'd be like, ah, but then he misses. It's serious. This is a serious part, not, not a joking part. Rosebuds! Who's got the rosebuds?

No, no, no, that's the, that's not the thing. Anyway.

Oh,

man. Anyway.

Alright. I'm having too much fun with this. I know, this is great. Yeah.

Whew.

Alright. Man, anything we missed?

Now, now I'm going to have to rewatch all 10 posts.

Yeah. Go watch, go watch again

on Beta Max and then tell all your friends on the party line. . This is great.

It was on Hulu. I was excited about it.

It was on Hulu. I didn't have to pay for it. Oh, yeah. So I was able to, to use it through our Hulu account, [00:32:00] but Nice. Oh man. Well, well, before we wrap up, I know you guys just wrote a book together. Why don't you talk about that?

Yeah. Um, so I think one of the things, and, and I know Michael will share some stuff about, is.

You know, we've been fortunate enough and blessed to work with teachers all over the world for the last however many years. And, um, you know, our journey together started coaching swimming together. And, uh, I remember getting together on Thursday nights after practice and debriefing practice and just talking about all the challenges we were facing.

Right. And, um, it comes back to that idea of like, well, we're, we're getting told this thing and we tried it, but it's not necessarily working. So the solution was to do more things. Um, and I think it's almost like that idea of that relationship of like, when I watched Dead Poets Society, that wasn't my reality, right?

So like, yeah, it's a good story, but that, that wasn't my school. Right. And I think we, what we, what we know is teachers sit in professional development and learning, they want to make a difference, but they're always trying to visualize like, That's great, but what about [00:33:00] my kids, right? I'm glad you showed me that video, but what does it actually look like in action?

Um, so really and we wanted to plan on working and developing routines that teachers can implement more Um, you know, they don't have to read a 500 page book Theoretically, you know reflect and do all the things things that were actually actionable Practical they can do it tomorrow Um Um, and it's going to have a huge impact on, on kids lives.

And so that was really the inspiration, uh, behind that. Uh, Michael, I don't want to take up all of it. Yeah, I think,

no, no, no, I think that's great. I mean, I just think of when Aaron and I first started to work together years ago, just the year after Dead Poets Society was released, um, the, I'm just kidding.

But, uh, what was that? Nineteen seven? Oh, no, no, no. Anyway, um, You know, when you coach swimming, when you, you know, swimmers can only get one, they can only get 1 percent better every day. Like, they can't, you can't go in and be like, you need to get 20 percent [00:34:00] better in butterfly. They'll be like, I'm not coming tomorrow.

Like, and, and so for us, it was always, how do you make, how do you make change small and doable? And I think the other part is when you look at the advent of graphic novels to take really complex ideas, like they have Slaughterhouse Five, Kill a Mockingbird, and Dune, and 1984, and they have them in graphic novels, and they're pretty good.

And they take really challenging themes for students that have not lived that life, right? And they are expected to understand things that adults, like, I look back for like, like a book like For Whom the Bells Toll, and I'm like, I get it now? I didn't get it when I was 17. But you have these graphic novels that can actually help illustrate to students a little bit more about what's happening in these, in these bigger concepts.

And for us, when we think about how do we help teachers learn about small doable practices. That they have, maybe have not implemented before, um, but would like to. How do you make that in a practical way? And so what Aaron and I try to [00:35:00] do is to, to make a graph, like basically a graphic novel. With like these four simple steps.

that a teacher could pick up, whether they're in a professional learning community, by themselves, at school, and just really pick it up turnkey and say, Oh, this is a way to give more effective feedback. Oh, this is a way to get students to, um, maybe speak at a more complex level than they used to. And so for us, it was like, that was our idea, small and doable and visual.

So someone can just use it.

Yeah. So who, who did the graphics then? I mean, like, that is definitely out of the boxes. I think of like, even these movies and things like, man, come on, guys, like professional development. It's like, it's gotta be very like straightforward and boring. You can't do graphics.

Yeah. I mean, it

was, my background is not in drawing.

Yeah, no, uh, you know, it's, it's fun. Like it was when we started the process a while ago, right. We were thinking about the number of steps, like how, like, how do we visually represent this? Um, so we went through a variety of different iterations. Um, and it's fascinating when you work with [00:36:00] illustrators, like Michael and I, like, we can close our eyes and I can, we can visualize it, right?

We can see it in our classroom, right? But we're not artists, right? So then how do you convey that message? The picture of what a classroom looks like? And then render that to an illustrator who's most likely not an educator. Never stood in front of students, worked with students, and so to paint that picture in itself and then to make that come to life.

Um, and then just doing iterations about like, hey, what, what would a teacher react like really say here and what would students be saying and what would they be thinking? Um, and then like what's happening here? So like to paint that picture, um, was a challenge, but man, it's. Maybe we're just super nerds, but like, it's just, it's great.

Cause we can see it in action, um, as well. So the illustrations definitely have been a challenge, right. That all the little things, uh, but it's fun when a teacher can just see it and be like, that makes sense. I can do that. Um, and that's, that was our goal. Yeah.

Yeah. [00:37:00] And, and the only thing I would add is one of the things that we, it was really important for us when we worked with illustrator is to make it simple.

So that it wasn't complex and it wasn't abstract, like it wasn't an abstraction of what's happening, but that it's almost like you go into, you go into like an airport bathroom and they have like laminated, like the four steps to wash your hands and it's like, here are the hands, here's a faucet, right?

And you're like, and it's like, those are the four steps and when Aaron and I were doing this, like, we're like, we need that. So one, we need it. So it's super simple that someone could be like, those are the four steps. And two, that it doesn't seem like this is something coming from an ivory tower, or from John Keating's school.

Like, hey! Like, here's these really cool things. Like, that was really important for us. And so we worked with, um, a couple of illustrators. that were able to render this and then we made multiple drafts and, um, and that was a, that was a journey. I mean, this is both our, our first experience working together, but then both of our first experiences of trying to create [00:38:00] like a graphic illustration of, I mean, we're creating three books.

This is the first one. We have 72 illustrations and then flashcards with like another like 150 of them. And so designing those and working through the comics and what the person says and what's on the board and where did the students sit. Um, it's been, uh, it's been a, it's been a ride.

Yeah, that's awesome.

What's the best place to go to the website? Is that the best? route to get more info and we'll, we'll definitely have it in the show notes too.

Yeah, I mean, right now the best place, uh, to go to Mimi and Todd Press would be the best, uh, place to go. Uh, it's obviously also readily available on Amazon. Um, would be great spots to go.

Um, the great thing about if you go to Mimi and Todd Press is they have some samples of like, not things that are in the book, but like what the graphics kind of look like. Um, and like, even like the recommendations from superintendents, teachers, and things like that. We have the, they have those visually represented, um, and Publisher did a fantastic job making those even come to [00:39:00] life to give you a flavor and a taste, uh, of that.

Cool. Man, well, we'll have to have you guys come back. Thank you for the, the first ones. I'm just thinking if we do any, like, Kevin Hart movies, like Night School or something, I want to bring Michael back to do more impersonations for sure.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. Kevin Hart see this. He might, he might.

I think a little bit. He might have a critique of my impersonation.

Yeah, and we feel, I mean, David

Hart, Dead Poets Society? Oh, I mean, how funny would that be?

That would be great, yeah. Like kicking the

soccer ball? Like, come on, Anyway, all right, I'll stop talking.

Awesome. All right. Listeners, hopefully you like this format.

Better, better learning podcast. com is the hub for everything. So throw us your suggestions. Um, I think we're onto something here. Are we definitely going to try this again? If I can get guests that are willing to do it and, uh, but yeah, it's, uh, it's a lot of fun, [00:40:00] but yeah, give us ideas of like movies that we can put on our list and then give us ideas of different categories that you'd want to hear us break down to, so Michael McDowell.

Cool. Aaron Iceberg, thank you. It's great.

Thank you very much. Thanks for having us.