The Better Learning Podcast focuses on improvement at all levels of K-12 education. It features discussions with education leaders. industry experts, and changemakers covering various aspects of the learning experience.
The podcast provides valuable insights and practical advice to break down the silos of education and actively drive change!
November 20, 2024
Is your furniture shaping the way students learn?
In this episode of the Better Learning Podcast, host Kevin Stoller welcomes Amanda Hastings, NCIDQ, ALEP, IIDA, Senior Interior Designer at SLAM Collaborative. Together, they dive into the critical role of furniture in shaping educational environments and its impact on students, teachers, and communities.
Amanda’s passion for creating dynamic, student-centered learning spaces shines as she shares her approach to furniture design in schools. With nearly two decades of experience and a client-centered philosophy, she emphasizes that furniture should do more than complement design—it should guide it.
Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/YA-sOENFpfw
Takeaways:
- Furniture should guide the design, not just follow it.
- Engaging teachers early in the design process is crucial.
- Quality furniture impacts student learning and engagement.
- Educating decision-makers on furniture value is essential.
- Community involvement can drive educational improvements.
- Building a positive school culture is as important as the physical space.
- Collaboration among designers, educators, and communities is key.
Amanda’s approach to interior design is both thoughtful and deeply client-centered. With almost two decades of experience in designing inclusive environments, she brings a wealth of expertise to her work, particularly in the public-education sector. Amanda’s design philosophy is rooted in connection—she prioritizes building relationships with clients to understand their unique needs and visions and values understanding the "why" behind every design decision. Her designs are conceptually grounded, blending creativity with the personality of the client to create engaging, dynamic spaces where everyone will thrive.
Her recent completion of the ALEP program in 2023 was driven by her passion for designing educational environments, and equipped her with expert knowledge and an enhanced desire to not only create student-centered spaces that enrich their learning experience but also to bring this knowledge to the clients and communities she works with.
Sound Bites:
"Furniture should guide the design, not just follow it."
"We need a cultural shift in education."
"Seeing furniture in person makes a huge difference."
"The furniture world can be confusing."
"The transformation of schools is the best part."
Follow Amanda Hastings on Social Media:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanda-hastings-shea-ncidq-alep-iida-ba603755/
Learn More About The SLAM Collaborative
Website: https://slamcoll.com/
Instagram: theslamcollaborative
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-s-l-a-m-collaborative/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheSLAMCollaborativeArchitecture
Episode 207 of the Better Learning Podcast
Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.
For more information on our partners:
Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/
Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/
Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/
EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/
Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/
Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website
Transcript
Kevin Stoller (00:06.754)
Welcome to the Better Learning Podcast. My name is Kevin Stoller, host of the show, and we're always looking at how we can improve education from a variety of different aspects. We've been really digging into the furniture aspect and how much it impacts the space over some recent episodes, and I've been having a lot of conversations. So that's why my guest today, Amanda Hastings. Amanda, how are you doing?
Amanda Hastings
Very good. Thank you for having me.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah. And so why don't you give a little bit of just like your intro and the firm you're with and what your role is. And then we're just going to go back because we were having conversation and that's really I want to get back to really just the conversational part of it.
Amanda Hastings
I am a senior interior designer at the SLAMM Collaborative based in Connecticut. We have firms all over the country, but mostly the public ed work that we do K-12 schools is in Connecticut and out of our Rhode Island office, Connecticut office.
Mostly just Connecticut and Rhode Island are where we focus. I've been working on public ed for most of my career. So probably like the 18 years or so. And again, mostly Connecticut. And yeah, it's become one of those things where I just kind of fell into doing schools because the firm I worked for before did it. And then it just has become a passion of mine where now I solely do K-12 public school work.
And it is something that I'm definitely passionate about, like the learning environments and the furniture aspects of that. Last year I completed the ALEP program, which was tremendously insightful. And it kind of blew my mind that like, how do you get to this point in your career where you're working on school so far? And there was so much information there to learn. I kind of makes you feel bad of like, my God, I wish I had known this like 15 years ago and was working, you know, towards these things at that point and understanding the reasons why behind everything that we're doing. So at this point, I really feel like it's important to, for me to share that knowledge with either other designers in my firm or, you know, definitely with the clients, but like would love to like find a way to kind of bring more of the information out to the general public. Cause you just, I just feel like, not everybody understands what we do, why we do it, and how the classroom is impacted by design.
Kevin Stoller (02:21.068)
I love it. Yeah, perfect. And we have talked because I've been trying to, I wanted to interview a lot of people, not on the podcast. I've been interviewing, I think I'm at somewhere in the mid-upper 30s or 40s people just being like, from your perspective, what's the best practices of the projects that you're doing? What's the best way to make sure that the furniture is incorporated so that
that the intent of the space and the culture and the teaching and the pedagogy, everything aligns. So when they go into that space, that it really makes the impact that we're seeking. And you were the ones that we were getting pretty deep in the weeds. So I'm like, you know, we need to really get the details in on an episode like this. So I was just starting to tell you before we recorded this, one of the things that I've gotten from it is that
We did a three part series that's going to be coming out by the time this one goes, it will be there. So people can go back and listen to it. I'm really looking at the why it matters and then more of like the how and some of the best practices. But what I've been landing on, it does feel like the best, the best case scenario is typically when it is a team collaborative approach and that furniture is really looked at very early in the process. And it sounds like your view on that is very similar on that. What I mean, from your point of view, like what what's the best case for you? Like if you were going to guide a district through this, how would you guide them through the process?
Amanda Hastings
I think so. First, I'm going to say when I first started working on schools, a lot of times like the interior designers wouldn't even be involved until like, you know, like all the spaces are laid out, you're coming in halfway through the design. And that to me, I'm like, how, how is that helping that, you know, like, like the furniture is not something that should just follow the design. It should be helping to guide it. like, you know, whether you're setting up a classroom or an office or a media center, catering those, that design to what that space is, is so important. So like, I think that has definitely evolved with the work that I've been doing. And, you know, this was a long time ago. like being an advocate for getting into your designers and the people that are doing the programming and planning involved very early on and making sure that they are part of that space planning.
And before, maybe even before you're talking with the client, just using your best practices to kind of figure out how do these spaces work so that when you do have those initial conversations with the client, you've already brought the design to a certain point where you know how it functions, know how, know, the, you know, essence of like a media center. So you can talk them through what you're showing to have that conversation. But I feel like sometimes, you know, if the design doesn't have the ability to bring that conversation to life, that's where you're, you're struggling at first. So making sure that you truly are embedded in the design from the beginning to be able to have those conversations. how early?
Me, I'm usually when the project starts, when we go to the interview is when we kind of start having that conversation. And then, you know, when it's SD, the beginning of very schematic designs of just working for me, working with our programmers. They do a lot of space planning and just even making sure they understand what the size of a classroom needs to be, what you know, what you need in there to have those dynamic layouts that if.
desks are all just facing forward in a room. Like you might not need as much space as you do if you're moving them around and having flexible furniture. really making sure that everyone who's working on the project understands the why you need certain square footage or why you need visibility to the media center or visibility to other places to kind of activate those things. I think so very early on, as soon as we start the project, we're having these conversations.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah. So as I've been talking to people and just coming off LearningSCAPES and, you know, and when a recording this, we're heading into EDspaces. Like it's all like I feel like this is a topic that just keeps coming up and went probably because I'm bringing it up. But but also because I feel like it is like we're at that moment in like the industry. Yeah, we're getting this momentum like where if you would have said 10 years ago, like these newer products were coming out and like we were recognizing that they make an impact and we were putting it in, but then the teachers weren't kind of coming along. And now I feel like we're addressing that that was recognized and now we're doing a better job as an industry of getting the teacher voices and bringing them along on professional development. So now I feel like the last step to like really get this is, is how do we kind of get the team approach to go in earlier?
To do this and it really comes around like just like the earliest conversation of like let's be talking about furniture very early. us it definitely helps when you have a school district or you have a city that's already you know up on that information and they're pushing for it so you know it's much easier obviously when you don't have to educate everybody that's on the project for like, is this so great? When they come to you with that, that makes it so much easier. So we've definitely seen more push. Like for example, a Rhode Island project that we just did, I just had to write an entire letter to be submitted with my furniture package to explain to them the entire process along the way and how we engage staff and what we did to make sure that they were educated. And that's a new thing. Like we've never had to do that with any of our furniture packages before. So now it's being brought from that state review to say, hey, this is important and we want to make sure that you're doing it. So show us how you did that. So that to me is exciting because, you know, it doesn't feel like you're out here just like pushing forward and on your own that really it's coming from, you know, the important people that are funding these projects. So. Yeah, I always use this like that bell curve that if you look at like an industry, like a product life cycle, like I felt like, you know, like we were like kind of those trendsetters and then the early adopters and now we're we're at the point where if we're not at the early majority we may even be further along where I think this is like the majority is recognizing what's going on which is exciting.
So this is where I'm at and I'd love to get your take on this. I feel like there have been two camps of when it actually comes down to more of like the mechanics of how how furniture is approached on a project. There's kind of the camp that I would say is more than kind of the more traditional approach of like, we're going to build a spec and we're going to bid it out. And that's typically going to be like roughly six months prior to a school opening. Maybe they'll get a little further ahead. Maybe it'll be nine months. But and then there's this other camp.
And that's more of like, we're going to pick our partner early on. We're going to do some type of valuation and pick our partner first before we pick the products. Have you had experience with either one of those or is yours typically some type of hybrid?
Amanda Hastings
A little bit of a hybrid. Mostly bidding. A lot of times it comes from the client. They sort of dictate what it is.
In Connecticut, you have the option of either using a state contract or going to bid. But you're limited by who's on the state contract. And thankfully, a lot of the school products are, but not necessarily everything. And then there's limits to that. So it's working around that contract system. But we kind of do a hybrid thing in my office where even if we go to bid, we're limiting what the product could product is, so you're not just opening up to anyone providing you anything and then kind of having to vet it and work with the client to figure out on the end, know, are these chairs comfortable? Like, does this one match this one? Are they equal in ergonomics and durability? We kind of dictate upfront, like, here are your three things that we've already vetted that these ones, here's your basis of design that we know that we want and two, that we will accept, and that is it. So we kind of control exactly where getting it.
It's not a perfect system. Ideally, we would love to just go work with VS and get the VS chair or work directly with Smith's systems and get exactly what we want. But for me, it's always been very hard because it's not always up to me of how we can do that. Working within the parameters that I have, we try very hard to make our own rules to make the system work for us.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah. And it is, I mean, you're 100 % right from what I'm...been hearing from everyone. It is so dependent on each state and what the requirements are. And then obviously, sometimes the districts have different preferences in there. Yeah, and I think that's, that's the piece to me that is probably like the, the next wave of the conversations that we that be next proving how do we do this? Yeah, of the how we do this because yeah, because because I do think that that's where we're at right now. Like, like, this is the moment where we need to have the discussions of like, is furniture a commodity? Or is furniture, you know, an integral part of the learning environment? Because you know, the reality of it, like, if you have to put three equals, on there. They're never quite equal. if you start mixing and matching, it doesn't have the same design intent where if it was all the basis of design, or if you can say, hey, this is exactly what I want, you can actually pick that and the district can actually pick this is what we want on there. that's why you like
Yeah, if I'm going to put my my experience on it, it's like, man, when you can do that, you're going to have a much better result. You're going have this collaborative approach. You're going to know exactly what you're getting. You're going to know the pricing upfront. You're going to say like, hey, we are not going to be, we're not going over budget and we can now decide what is the most important thing. So if we want to put more of our resources into a certain, a certain part of the school or certain ones, we can now
like collaboratively make those decisions versus putting a bid out and then trying to piece it all back together once we get all these bid prices. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely would help them, you know, maintain the level of what you want in the end, which I feel like sometimes like, not, know, our struggle is sometimes, sometimes not everyone really understands the value of the furniture, no matter what you say. And everyone has, you know, their things that they think are the most important, whether it be an architectural item or something for the custodial, like a very expensive piece of equipment for a custodial. And so it's weighing those things where everyone kind of comes in there with their own opinions. so furniture is not always the top priority for everyone. sometimes we get the, we'll just use the existing chairs and desks and they're all attached to each other and it's fine. They're in good condition. And you just think like, no, no, please.
Like, let us figure out like a way to work with the budget and work with what you're getting. And, you know, if you can truly get what you want in the end, like that would definitely help them. you know, it's always that struggle of like not everyone sees that furniture as the priority based on, know, whatever they're coming to the table with there. Yeah. So is it, is it the biggest obstacle if I'm hearing you right is more of like the education of the client? I would say, yeah, the education of the people that
make the decisions. Not necessarily, you it's not always teachers who are making decisions. A lot of times it's, you know, people that are part of the building committee, the Board of Ed, superintendents, like, you know, they all kind of have a lot of influence because they are the ones that make the financial decisions. So it's us bringing our expertise to them so they understand that this is something valuable that they should be putting their money into and why, right? What, from your point of view, what would be like if you can wave a magic wand to make this better or to make sure these projects have a bigger impact, what's the biggest thing that you think is getting in your way?
Amanda Hastings
I think honestly, people just are very unaware of the furniture world. They don't really understand what is available to them or why behind furniture design and how the classrooms function.
I feel like a lot of times, you know, like a board of ed or a building committee is parents or people that are retired and they're kind of doing this as, know, on the side. So a lot of times they're not even working in the schools or they're not necessarily like seeing what it's like living in those classrooms. They feel like a lot, like the people that come to the table don't necessarily know all the stuff that we deal with on a daily basis or necessarily the stuff that the teacher's dealing with on a daily basis. some way, if there was a way to get more education out there to those, that tier of people that are invested in the schools. I think it would really help, you know, people, not only us, but obviously the schools and school systems and all the way down to the students, because those people would be advocating for it at that level. And earlier on than even like the architects and designers are involved in the play, you know, and they're, they're putting this together to get the funding for these projects in the beginning, if they set that as a priority.
before it even becomes a project. I think that is key in getting better furniture. Yeah. I always think of it it's in a lot of ways, it's almost like a cultural shift. like, how do you, yeah, how do you? And to generalize, a lot of times people on the building committee are older because they have more time. They're retired. And they don't know what's happening in current furniture design or classroom.
concepts and you know a lot you know there's a lot of people who are educated but sometimes you're like I've had the same desk back then like what's the matter you know that attitude and you're like no let me tell you let me explain you know it's some of those things that you you do encounter which you know also make you frustrated yeah you can do better
Kevin Stoller
Yeah, all right. So that's a good perspective because that's what I'm yeah like in my mind like I'm only dealing with with this all the time So maybe we maybe we still do need to drive home or that why and show it, you know, put it in a bunch of different Formats for them because I'm always trying to think I'm like, know, like, know, like is it you know, like
They may not be the ones that making the decisions, but I think they definitely can have a voice in what those decisions are. And it is directly benefiting their kids. So I that's, don't know how they would get educated on this, but I feel like that's probably a missing link of like people that don't necessarily know what's happening. All right. You're hitting like one of my passion points right here. Did we, did we talk about, the nonprofit and the docu-series last time we talked that we were working on? Okay. All right.
I'm going to tell you about it. And you could. But that was one of the things that I'm like, you know what, we really need to bring the communities on like like we're working on this more from like the industry side. But wouldn't it be awesome if it was more the demand side of like the communities were coming to the school saying, why, why aren't we doing this? So we just our team just spent a lot of time thinking about like, how do we like like like what does make those cultural changes? And we kept landing of like it's like it's the media and entertainment industry. Like most major movements and things that have happened, it's because there's been a movie or a TV show or something. And I always come back to the show Fixer Upper with Chip and Joanna Gaines. Super entertaining ship. Not everyone has farmhouse. Exactly. Everyone has shiplap on their walls now. They completely changed the way homes and...
you know, in the US are designed. And so, yeah, so we've been trying to look through that and be like, how do we do that? How do we do it in an entertaining way where it's not, you know, just for people who are normally interested in schools? So we started a nonprofit with, you know, with other partners, and we're always looking for more for more people to come along with this called Second Class Foundation. That was... that's really rooted in how do we improve education through the use of media and storytelling? And one of the first projects we're doing is we found this amazing film crew to do a docu-series and they did the first episode, which is really powerful. It's really well done. I would definitely recommend everyone watch it. It's not that long. It's like nine minutes long, but it hits home like...
really of like, yeah, I've heard people say it's heartbreaking. And I'm like, yeah, just know that's the first that's only the first episode. Sometimes you need that, like a little bit of that. Yeah. He's honest to like, get the point across. Right. Yeah, I keep saying like, we have a mapped out like 10 episode series. And it's like every good story it it has to show the transformation.
So the first one is really heartbreaking and it's really like kind of showing a really dire need of a school in Idaho. But our intent is to weave other stories in around the country and show like others like, I mean, Cranston schools are great example of you look at some of the things that they're doing in that district and to be able to showcase, be like, look, this is what some schools in the country are doing.
And some districts are working towards and being able to weave some of these stories and these narratives, but really wrapped around really good character development in there. I know it's a big thing. mean, I'll show you. Yeah. I mean, I'll send you the link, but, you know, secondclassfoundation.org is is for the listeners and we can put the link in there. But yeah, I keep coming back to them like I don't know how else to get other people in to it other than trying to meet them where they're at. And, you know, and the intent is how do we put content like Netflix quality types of things that when they're sitting down at night saying, what am I going to watch? They actually watch something like this. The TikTok world and the, you know, Instagram reels and getting that so that you're sharing it. The next person is sharing it. I have no idea if I can start that, but like that, you know, that's like the world it seems like everything is like spurred from right but like how to get that going with beyond just our industry. yeah. So digging into like what you do on an everyday basis, you have a very good working knowledge of like, what products are out there and the why behind it. I mean, what are the things that
that you wish other people knew or had the viewpoint, either if they're just starting out or they haven't done as many schools or? I think it like like for me, like going to Ed spaces and really seeing and having that like, like not just having like a sales rep come and kind of give you the pitch, but like really seeing the furniture and feeling it and sitting in it. And like it's amazing how that actual small act of like
Kevin Stoller (23:03.674)
bringing a sample chair to a client and having them sit in a student chair that is ergonomic and does have movement and they instantly get it. Like they're like, my God, like this is what the students should have, I understand. So I feel like anyone who's new to that, just like getting out there and like seeing the furniture in person and like hands-on and testing it and sitting in it and like just getting involved in that, like seeing it in person. Like there's so many things, know, like
pictures and images of classrooms and all of that you can see online. But I feel like it doesn't really resonate until you're trying it out yourself. So that to me is like step one. If you're going to do school design, like go to EdSpaces or go to showrooms or go to a factory tour, go and like see, you know, get the spiel, but also get to test it yourself so you understand. Yeah. What was the moment for you like when it clicked?
Amanda Hastings
I think, you know, like I'm I'm a BS person. I
Like I love our, VS dealers, Robert Lord, and they are fantastic. So working with them, our VS prep and just, I distinctly remember when you say video, like David Stubbs, the video that they had done of like school in Hawaii and just how transformative it was. And then just going to their factory and seeing that in person. And then not only just understanding the why behind the, the design and like how the classroom functions, but also like the integrity of how the furniture is made, the durability, which is huge in schools. Like that's a huge thing. You know, they get this furniture usually once for 50 years. So how is it going to hold up? And, you know, is it going to be suitable for kids in high school who are like rough and tough on it and all, and like just being able to like sit in it and test it and see like how this is made and how does this really benefit the school on
you know, a very wide variety of ways, whether it's budget or like I durability or comfort or flexibility or, you know, future proofing for how does this evolve over time? They were very integral in that for me of just kind of getting that message and that, you know, it's not just being dedicated to them, but then seeing how does that work with other people and how are other companies evolving? Because I feel like in the past 10 years,
Like definitely in the past 15 years, a lot of other companies have come along and a lot of other companies have definitely evolved what they're offering for furniture. I think following in that trend, right? Like there was not a lot of the same stuff back 10 years ago that there is now that you have way more options for what you can do with the classrooms, sit to sand desks and chairs that are different ways of sitting and those things and just being excited for what's evolving.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah, totally, totally agree. Yeah, I feel like that story component of really that understanding of of the why behind it is so important. To me, I remember like distinctly in that video, I think it's not just the furniture, right? Like it's showing the classroom that the kids are sitting on the floor and they're like having like a soft spot where they're leaning against the chair or
sitting underneath the desk. So it's not always like the in the box that you're picturing of like, how does this desk work? But hey, can someone sit under this? And now all of sudden, it feels like a cozy spot. And they're leaning against a soft seating in the room. And how are they using that differently? it's not just about the one function that you think that that piece of furniture has, but how can that whole classroom kind of be an inviting and exciting place for kids to be engaged? Yeah, yep. Love it. Yeah.
That to me is like a perfect example of like, man, like there are these resources that just so desperately want to help on these projects that to be able to work with them and bring people in and do that. How often are you either approach like what's it like from your point of view when people are
calling you about furniture or you're trying to learn about furniture because one of the things that I've been learning from these interviews is that the furniture world can be confusing of like, who are the distributors? Who are the manufacturers? Who does what? Like, what are the contracts? who has access to what? Have you figured that out yet? I I feel like I know that more so just because of working on the school projects.
Kevin Stoller (27:40.078)
I don't think it says, you the people in my office that do furniture for higher ed or corporate don't really understand that as much as I do because I constantly have to work with bids and who is a dealer and what's a manufacturer and what manufacturers are on state contract and with who and like that level is a little bit more intense, I think in like the public ed world than it is in other areas. So I feel like I do have a good understanding, but sometimes it, you know, it's hard to tell
what's the sales pitch versus what is the genuine, and you kind of have to like, just, you know, do your research and be open-minded, but also, you know, keep those questions in mind. you know, sometimes you just see, well, maybe you just copied the last person's because they're so successful. And so is that really what, like, what your furniture is bringing or, you know, like, it's just kind of being aware of, I don't know, you know, the whole spiel behind it sometimes. It's not always.
all just about like the furniture and the classrooms, but sometimes it's a sales pitch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, like that I've been in the furniture world, you know, on this for 15 years now. And there's definitely, you know, there are definitely people who like are in it and care about, and I would say a lot in our industry are, and then there's some where it is clearly they're just trying to sell stuff. and I think on my end,
making sure that your client kind of understands the integrity of the products that we kind of are promoting and the dealerships and the manufacturers who do have their best intentions and wanna be there for the long run. And like why that might be something that you're selecting versus somebody else that might be less expensive or why you're selecting one company or one chair over another.
that it's not for on us, you it's not just about the sales pitch, but there is that whole breadth of reasoning behind it. So, you know, it kind of helps us to understand all of that behind the scenes because it's very hard to sell the wide your client without understanding the difference between, you know, the whole spectrum of every chair that's out there and like what sets one apart from the other.
Kevin Stoller
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Completely. It's a, yeah. I, yeah, I think this is another one that I'm like,And I think the furniture industry, and I'll put myself in that category of like, think we can be doing a better job coordinating and not making, I mean, I know there's always going to be a competitive component to it, but I know enough of like the people in this industry and the best ones don't have that competitive mindset. They have this collaborative mindset.
And, and that's my hope is that, you know, like we're genuinely in this because we want to create better learning environments. that is our goal. of you out there who have that passion that comes through, right? Like you, it's very easy to see who's passionate about this and, and, you know, versus like what is just a sales pitch. that passion is definitely a driving force that like, resonates with on the design side of these for me.
Yeah, yeah. And that's what's the part that's encouraging to me is that I think the ones that are like really getting involved like at a deeper level of this, whether it's in, you know, the A4LE community or the Ed market, you know, and, you know, the corresponding conferences on there. What else are you looking at? Like, what are the things that are either headaches to you or... And then I'm gonna...
ask you the converse there when we wrap up. I am going to say a hundred percent every project, every single time budget is always the biggest hurdle. You know, sometimes you are very limited on what you have. Sometimes there's other things that get pushed into the furniture budget. So it's not just your typical furniture. So you're dealing with a lot of different aspects. And I, I feel like that and as prices are rising and things are more expensive, but sometimes those budgets have been increased.
to deal with inflation. That's always a struggle on our end of how do you provide exactly what you think they need when the budget just kind of feels like it's fighting you all the time. And like, where is it that you can kind of pull back or like, what can you do so that you're not compromising the integrity of what they're getting in the classroom or what the students are getting for furniture, but how do you balance that with like keeping on budget that every single time is the hardest part. Yeah, how are you seeing like the budgets?
Kevin Stoller (32:28.39)
be assigned? Are they taking percentage of the job costs or are they looking at per square foot or some other? A lot of times I'm not involved when they're set, but I think They just give you that budget and say, this is what you can echo over. I think the way they do it in Connecticut is it's a certain amount per student. If you have 600 kids, 600 times, I don't know what the number is, whatever that number is.
And then that's what you kind of across the board. We've had challenges where they're like, we have 600 students. But really, the school is planned for 800 students. And you're like, that budget didn't actually cover the new school. That covered your existing school. then it's those challenges. But I think for me, it's always understanding, what is that budget in the first place? So that can really think about what's the best thing that we can do. For me, it's always
What's the best that we can get them, the most that we can get them within that budget that, that, you know, allows them to have like the greatest school possible. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Now on the positive side, what, keeps you going? What do you, what do you love about this work? Like, what are the things that get you excited about or really find fulfilling? Yeah. First of all, this, like having other people, like it, I feel like it's been a newer thing for me to like after doing the A-Lab and being a little bit more involved in like the,
that world that there are other people out there who are doing this too. I feel like people are excited about it. So that is, I'm so excited about that. Cause usually being the only one in my office for the past 10 years that worked on Public Ed, I felt like, you know, I have other designers and other firms that I know, but like, there's not that community for me. So like having a community now has been fantastic. Also, you know, like so many of these schools haven't been touched in 50 years. And when you see what their classrooms look like, what the,
chairs that they're sitting in that like, know, the art teacher has a closet. She doesn't have a classroom. She has a cart and that is it. And what, when you're working on these projects and they get to see that like, not only do I have like an entire classroom, like it's full of amazing things. Like that excitement is the best part. Like what the possibilities of what those teachers and students and like community have, like that is the best for me. And like, that's why I kind of.
Kevin Stoller (34:51.514)
decided that like public ed really was like my favorite thing because it was just so different than doing like a corporate job or working on, know, like a higher ed. They're like amazing, cool projects. But for me, like that transformation that you have when you go from a school that literally you've had the more, know, the ceilings are crumbling on them. The like, the walls, the doors don't work. The windows don't, you know, like there's all these things that they're living in these horrible spaces. And when they ask you like,
Will I be able to turn on the lights in my room or can I come into my classroom and like not have to wear my coat in the winter? And then you say, well, of course. And then also here are all the other things that you could have like your, you know, here's the furniture options and here's like how this space is going to work. And here's like the view of the, you know, forest outside. It gets so excited. And that to me is the best part. Like that. And user. That's really cool. Well, thank you for the work you're doing.
Because I do think like you're finding, like you said, the community. I'm totally with you. mean, this community of it, it's there is a like a specialness to to this of like this type of work that is just different from other sectors. And it's really cool to to find this community that does generally care about it and kind of give that like.
extra attention to it and recognize like this is this literally is life changing. Like how lucky are we that we to do work like that? Yeah, like the entire community. has been to school. Most everybody you know has a connection with school, you know, so I feel like it's like everybody gets excited about it because they understand it. It's a part of everybody's life for the most part. So yeah, yeah. So yeah, I appreciate that. All right. Anything else I should be asking you that I didn't ask you about? gosh.
I mean, you know, I could keep talking, Yeah, I'm just, I just think it's exciting that in this time that they're, like I said, there's, there's motion, right? It's moving forward and it's just getting better all the time and more education and more information out there that, you know, broader communities are understanding about this. And it's just, it's going to make not only the schools better, it's going to make our designs better. It's just, yeah, a lot to come. That's exciting. So. Yeah. Very cool.
Kevin Stoller (37:07.782)
All right. Well, to the listeners, if you have not hit subscribe wherever you're listening, just hit subscribe and betterlearningpodcast.com is the hub for everything. I mean, this is our community. So it is, you know, like being able to really look at this, figure out how we can do a better, but then also, you know, like having that broader view of like, yeah, learning environments are a big part of this, but it's also like, we're looking at education as a whole of like, we all are recognizing we want to give the best opportunities for every kid. And it's pretty cool. have a community like that, that we get to interact with. So, Amanda, thank you.
Amanda Hastings
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Kevin Stoller (37:58.874)
Views and opinions expressed on the Better Learning Podcast are those of myself as an individual and my guests and do not necessarily represent the organizations that we work for, the Association for Learning Environments, K-12, Education Leaders Organization, or Second Class Foundation.
